Posts by drew sagan

26

in defense of the Holy Trinity

by potentialJWconvertswife in

i need some help on the holy trinity.

my husband is studying with the witnesses (he's not one of them yet), and is totally buying into the idea that god, jesus and the holy spirit are all separate, not (as i've tried to explain) separate, but also one in the trinity.

i have pointed out the scriptures in john that reference god as the word, and then jesus as the word later.

drew sagan

From what I've read in "20 questions Jehovah's Witnesses can not Answer" Jesus is the big deal. Is it true that JW's have not asked JC to be their Lord and Savior??

This is a theologicial debate. Such issues are complex and can be next to impossible to resolve, especially when people take stern positions on one side.

OTOH there are many ways to show that the Watchtower is not true. They have made countless claims about their own history that are false. They continue to teach and proclaim things that fly right in the face of science and history. Without getting into the touchy ground of theology there is more than enough to prove their error.

8

NON WITNESS DATING A WITNESS

by Daunbreakable in

makes sense?

well i'm not big on religion...i've studied many and rather just be on my own path.

am i wrong?

drew sagan

There usually a handful of issues that will continue to come up as time passes.

I think the most important thing for you to realize is that if this person never actually decides that the Watchtowers belief system is wrong, they will always have a feeling or desire to go back. This could also translate in a desire for you to be converted (especially by her parents).

The Watchtower makes a basic (and absurd) proposition. They are the only true church on earth and where selected by God in 1919. The early founders of the religion found that all other religions are wrong based on their bible studies and so God blessed them and chose them as his people.

Even if a person leaves the Watchtower religion physically (getting away from dominant partents is common) that person will still carry around the guilt of not being an active member of "the truth" (e.g. the God appointed Watchtower religion).

It can be quite a sad thing. A person is abused and tossed around by this religion but they transfer all the guilt to themselves because "Gods True Religion" could never be bad. Sometimes they go out and marry a non witness only to later want to go back to the religion, trying to take their new partner with them. As I mentioned above sometimes the family of the inactive member will try to put alot of pressure on the new mate to convert as well, hoping that will change the attitude of their child (i have seen a few people covert to the JWs this way).

If you get invovled with this person there are mainly two ways it can go.

1. The person actually realizes that what the Watchtower is saying about itself isn't true. They realize the way they view the world and themselves is a distorted picture and see the need for change. They eventually no longer feel guilt for deciding to leave the Watchtower or participate in it because they see it to be a system of untruths.

2. The person may leave physically but deep down still believes that they have done the wrong thing and that the JWs are "the truth". High levels of guilt are very common. At first the person decides to live outside of the group and believes that if they don't recieve everlasting life for their sin of leaving they don't care. Eventually over time their opinion may change and they may begin to want to return to the faith. They can upset their new marriage mate who wrongly thought the person had put all of their JW beliefs behind them.

Find out what this person believes about the JW religion. Do they feel it is "the truth"? That is going to be a good starting point for you.

73

What is your current status with the Watchtower Society and Congregation?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

i'm a baptized member considered ''inactive.

'' i don't hand in ''service reports'',attend maybe 3 meetings a month,ain't signed up for the ministry school and will never attend any convention or the ''book study.

'' always make the ''memorial.

drew sagan

dissassociated

26

in defense of the Holy Trinity

by potentialJWconvertswife in

i need some help on the holy trinity.

my husband is studying with the witnesses (he's not one of them yet), and is totally buying into the idea that god, jesus and the holy spirit are all separate, not (as i've tried to explain) separate, but also one in the trinity.

i have pointed out the scriptures in john that reference god as the word, and then jesus as the word later.

drew sagan

Part of the Watchtowers game is to get people to believe that their positions on things such as the Trinity are the most important issues to discuss and understand.

By doing so they distract the potential believer from investigating some of the major claims and problems the religion has. This includes their insistance that Jesus Christ appointed their religion as the only true one in the year 1919, that thousands of years ago ancinet meddeterannian Bible writers where inspiried by God to prophecy when their leaders would write certain articles in their magazines and hold cetrain conventions, and that science and history show that the world has gotten worse since 1914.

History, science, and basic common sense show that their radical claims are all the rantings of people out of touch with reality. But they will never come to your door and teach you these things. If they do, it is very sanatized and non confrontational.

The goal is to get him to realize that what the Watchtower says is important to him is nothing copared to all of their other bogus nonsense.

60

Feb. 1 mass calling campaign. Will you call?

by Shawn10538 in

i'm not sure if it was mentiopned.

but i think that we are talking about not just one call from each person, but we are talking about spending a good length of time calling repeatedly.

othrwise it just won't have much of an impact.

drew sagan

I'm just trying to draw out those who are patently against or apathetic about group actions. wHAT IS THE REASON FOR your apathy? Were you just not hurt that bad by the Society?

Lack of interest in mass capaigns against the Watchtower Society does equal an apathetic attitude.

There are a few important things that effect the thinking of those not interested in such things. First of all, there are always going to be people who will never leave the Watchtower (at least not in our lifetime). We can never know the percentage, but such loyalty does not go away quickly.

Secondly, many who are in the Watchtower respond negativly from such actions. They have been conditioned quite well against such confrontations. Only a small minority would possibly respond and it is very questionable whether or not it is worth it so to speak.

Thirdly, the majority of people on this board want to move on with their lives. They recognize that they left the Watchtower on their own free will. They made the choice to leave that system because of an internal crisis they faced, as an individual. You cannot just create that in other people. It is a place a person muct arrive at themselves. While there are things you can do that may possibly push a person in the direction of free thinking and internal questioning,

The Watchtowers main problem is information. They wish to control all information about themselves, but it is becoming more difficult. The Watchtower is eventually going to have a struggle not with people outside the group lobbing attacks at it, but with the people inside the group who wish to go out and defend what they niavely believe is "the truth"

The internet is littered with JW apologetics who want to go out and prove the "apostates" wrong.

They are coming to us, which is a much better thing.

147

Getting the forum back on track

by Simon in

recently we seem to have had a few different dramas and subsequent fallout on the fourm which i feel has detracted from its purpose.

with this in mind we have decided that we need to bring the forum back on track and as such we will be clamping down on a lot of the aggressive / insulting posts which have begun to become the norm for a few people.

we will also be clamping down on the paranoid assusation type of comments against newbies, if someone joins the fourm and you do not believe everything they post - so what, why do we need to hound them away with shouts of troll and fake etc, just ignore them if you dont beleive them.

drew sagan

Thx for posting that Simon

66

Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

by drew sagan in

from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

drew sagan

With this I EXIT this particular thread.

proplog2, your "exit" from this thread is nothing more than a desire to claim victory while thinking that nodoby is watching.

Just about everybody who has read this thread can see that you are confused and continue to argue about things I never discussed.

13

Watchtower Library 2007

by Body in

is there anybody who can upload the watchtower library 2007 ?

maybe at http://www.thepiratebay.org.

thanks,.

drew sagan

The CD is available via a bit torrent. It took me about a week but eventually I was able to get it.

66

Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

by drew sagan in

from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

drew sagan

You have a problem with their comparing themselves to other religions. You are saying that line of argumentation is "bogus".

Yes, thta's why in my first post I phrased the Watchtowers argument in four points that followed their model of comparison.

You don't seem to have a problem with their claim to a Biblical basis for their non-involvement in war and politics. Their Biblical stand is no different from the first three centuries of Church history. If you read the church fathers their is a strong similarity between their views on this matter and JW's view.

I only contend that the Watchtowers position as a minority puts limits on what it can claim about themselves.

Typically the Watchtower will ignore any of the differences between their situation and the situation of the group they are comparing themselves to. A few posts ago you actually did recognize that their is a gap between the groups and offered your own explanation as to how it balances out, stating that when Christians move into the majority they are no longer Christian. I think that such reasoning is narrow minded and rather unreasonable, but at least it recognizes that there is a gap that needs filled.

66

Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

by drew sagan in

from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

drew sagan

proplog2, you said:

Most likely your answer will be yes of course they believe that.

You have misunderestimated me.

My response actually is that the statement ""Jehovah's Witnesses believe there is a scriptural basis for not fighting in wars." does not fully represent the Watchtowers position on this issue, nor does it represent in any way the essential conclusion of the argument they try to make. If you believe that it does then that is why you are not on the same page as me.

I have not talked about the Watchtowers scriptural argument, and I think you have noticed that. What I have instead focused on is the Watchtowers argument as to why their specific religion is morally superior to others. Their main argument is always one of comparison. To ignore the comparisons the Watchtower makes is to ignore the thrust of their arguments. The following is a quote from the Watchtower from the Revelation book:

*** re chap. 7 pp. 35-36 pars. 10-11 Rekindle That First Love! ***

When judgment started with the house of God in 1918, the sectarian clergy of Christendom were giving open support to World War I, urging Catholics and Protestants on both sides to slaughter one another. (1 Peter 4:17) Unlike the Ephesian congregation that hated what the sect of Nicolaus was doing, Christendom’s religions had long been riddled with conflicting, anti-God doctrines, and their clergy had thrown their lot in with the world, of which Jesus said his disciples must be no part. (John 15:17-19) Their congregations, ignorant of the Bible’s theme, God’s Kingdom, were not lampstands beaming forth Scriptural truth, nor were their members part of the spiritual temple of Jehovah. Their leading men (and women) were not stars but were revealed to be members of “the man of lawlessness.”—2 Thessalonians 2:3; Malachi 3:1-3.

11 The John class, however, emerged from the tumultuous days of the first world war with a love for Jehovah and for the truth that impelled them to serve him with flaming zeal. They resisted those who tried to introduce sectarianism through practically idolizing the first president of the Watch Tower Society, Charles T. Russell, following his death in 1916. Disciplined by persecutions and adversities, this Christian group clearly received a judgment of “well done” from their Master and an invitation to enter into his joy. (Matthew 25:21, 23) They recognized in the course of world events, and in their own experiences, the fulfillment of the sign that Jesus had given to mark his invisible presence in Kingdom power. From 1919 onward, they moved forward to share in the further fulfillment of Jesus’ great prophecy: “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 6:9, 10; 24:3-14) If their love for Jehovah had been in some way lacking, it was fanned into a flame from that time onward.

Besides these paragraphs being some of the most historically inaccurate the Watchtower has ever produced (i.e. - Watchtower leaders and publications idolized Russell well into the 1920s & the Bible students relative position on war at that time is not even mentioned) they also show the comparative nature that the argument is commonly phrased. Christendom is usually mentioned first, being accused of anti-god, war mongering puppets of sectarian slaughter. Shortly following this will be something that makes Jehovah's Witnesses (in this case Bible Students) look so much better. It is a comparative argument, one is always shown as being better than the other.

Because these types of comparisons are found quite frequently in Watchtower magazines, it is very typical for Jehovah's Witnesses in general to put forth the argument that they have "the truth" because "the don't kill their brothers and sisters in war like other religions do".

In all my years as a Witnesses (and ex- Witness for that matter) I have never heard a Jehovah's Witness put forth their argument about war by saying something like "we believe there is a scriptural basis for not fighting in wars" without comparing themselves to other religions. Since the Jehovah's Witnesses are fixated on being a morally superior religion and are constantly comparing themselves to others, to ignore this part of their argumentation would give an incomplete picture. The statement you have given may define the belief, but it does not define the argumentation they use nor does it mention the conclusion they are always trying to get people to believe.

In this particular thread I am not interested in debating what they believe, but instead what they try to claim having such beliefs prove. There have to be limits to what they can claim about themselves.